WWII Vet an illegal citizen...

[CoeburnCane]

All I'm saying is ease up a bit and listen more. You bring up an article, ask a question on it. You get 3-4 responses that are counter to your thought on the question/subject, and them bam-bam-bam-bam, you're on them like a lion on raw meat with a bunch of links and "I'm right, you're flat wrong--I've researched this to death"...when all they have is a reactive opinion on the face of it and you've already prepped for it like it's the State of the Union. That's more than a little messed up, and unfair to other posters--and your reaction to their base opinion is a turnoff for anyone to waste the time to find facts that support their opinion/argument b/c they know you WILL NOT listen...because you haven't yet, and that's from post #1 to post #9,812--trust me, I've seen 90+% of your posts.

You keep talking about folks not proving you wrong...well, when have you ever honestly listened to someone else's opinion, seen facts from the other side, and seen the other POV? Find me those links, and I'll get off your case...

And one more thing so you know I'm not just being a prick--I 100% agree with your assertion that people use their knee-jerk reactions more often than actually being well-read and studied up on subjects that affect us all. One of my favorite folks on any network news broadcast is Rachel Maddow b/c she's all about making sure her facts are checked, double-checked, and triple-checked. Even if you don't agree with something she says idealogically, you can't refute the facts she uses. I understand that's part of your motivation for being so well-prepared coming into any thread that you start and/or most of the hot button topics out there. Not everyone is as dedicated to that as you are, and to expect as much is short-sided, even ignorant, on your part.

Listen up and listen good to this tidbit of wisdom--people, collectively, are dumb. Some individuals are smart, but a lot of the political agendas and opinions are based off of those of the masses...which is a collection of people, and is thusly dumb more often than it is intelligent. You force-feeding your researched facts down their throats on here will not make them any less dumb. You're fighting a good yet futile fight. That's a pessimistic, but realistic lesson that you need to grasp onto sooner than later. You'll be less frustrated with your fellow man as a result.

[Rocky]

You're fighting a good yet futile fight. That's a pessimistic, but realistic lesson that you need to grasp onto sooner than later. You'll be less frustrated with your fellow man as a result.

i wish i could thank just that one part........... very well said and this is what i have tried to get through on several occasions, just because someone doesnt agree with you, it DOES NOT make them stupid or uneducated.

and FWIW R13 the only time i ever thought you were really WRONG on something was with the dream act discussion we had. you said there were no funds set aside for them (pell grant or other) and you were wrong on that, they actually had MORE money allocated to them than what pell grants were offering to students with less funds. besides that, i really cant say that ive ever seen something yous aid that was totally wrong, just WAYYYYY biased. and you argue over stupid shit. but this is like my 5th post in 3 months so what do i know, i dont really like this place anymore anyway

[R13]

and FWIW R13 the only time i ever thought you were really WRONG on something was with the dream act discussion we had. you said there were no funds set aside for them (pell grant or other) and you were wrong on that, they actually had MORE money allocated to them than what pell grants were offering to students with less funds.

No I wasn't wrong on that and I really still don't have a clue where you are getting that it does...

Does not repeal the ban on in-state tuition for illegal immigrants. The DREAM Act does not force states to charge in-state tuition rates for illegal immigrants. The DREAM Act does not allow illegal immigrants to gain access to Federal Pell Grants and other financial aid.

There you go, from the provisions in the bill that we talked about and unfortunately was voted down in the Senate. That myth was passed around with the right-wingers like Michelle Malkin and debunked many times...

One of the most baseless excuses for opposing the bill is fiscal. Opponents of the bill have tried to throw a series of sensational and utterly unsupported cost figures into the debate, hoping something will stick. But the nonpartisan Congressional Budget Office, or CBO, did the analysis and concluded that the DREAM Act would reduce the deficit by $2.2 billion over the next 10 years.

DREAM-eligible youths would not be eligible for health care subsidies, including Medicaid, or other federal means-tested benefits like food stamps or Pell grants. More importantly, the alternative of removing the 700,000 eligible kids would cost taxpayers $16.2 billion over five years.

http://www.americanprogress.org/issu...eam_myths.html



The DREAM Act states that undocumented youth adjusting to lawful permanent resident status are only eligible for federal student loans (which must be paid back), and federal work-study programs, where they must work for any benefit they receive. They are not eligible for federal grants, such as Pell Grants.

http://immigrationpolicy.org/just-fa...ream-act-myths



Under the DREAM Act, undocumented youth adjusting to lawful permanent resident status are only eligible for federal student loans (which must be paid back), and federal work-study programs in which they must work for any benefit they receive. They are not eligible for federal grants, such as Pell Grants. DREAM Act students also receive no special public benefits and are subject to the same eligibility requirements for those benefits as other legal immigrants. DREAM Act students and their families are not immediately eligible for Supplemental Security Income, food stamps, Temporary Assistance for Needy Families, Medicaid (other than emergency care), and numerous other federal benefit programs. In general, a person must be here as a lawful permanent resident for five years before they receive non-emergency federal assistance.

http://www.connectingourworld.org/?page_id=1504

Need to go on? I was right, you were way off, they aren't eligible for federal assistance and sure don't get it and extra funds.

So you are saying the folks you supported were clueless?

Huhhhh? I was talking about voters, not candidates?

[Rocky]

ok.......... i said they werent getting pell grants. BUT if you are undocumented. understand that, undocumented. meaning nobody knows where you are from or how you got here. understand that please. UNDOCUMENTED, yet you are allowed to have "in state tuition" IN STATE TUITION AND NOBODY KNOWS WHERE YOU COME FROM. IM sure you are going to link up that "they may only recieve in state tuition if they would have been elligible for it" how can they prove residency of an UNREGISTERED 30 year old? yes, 30 years old was the cut off if i recall. or even a 22 year old or whatever. SO, if they were to attend a public small CC like MECC and were pretty much PAID to go to school. (yes legal registered PEOPLE DO THIS ALL THE TIME JUST TO MAKE MONEY, BUT WHY ADD MORE FUEL TO FIRE?) <----- read that, im not racisti know there are people doing it all the time.

http://cis.org/dream-act-costs i can post a biased link too. the cost per student to taxpayers KEEP IN MIND UNDOCUMENTED would be around 6000 dollars, yes taxpayer money is government money we would be paying for them to go to school. would I care if the dream act had been revised, NO BUT
The DREAM Act did not provide funding to states and counties to cover the costs it imposed. therefore, they were going on our dollar. Could it have been done differently, i dont see why not, and what happens when a student dropped out and recieved there student loans and had some left over and jumped ship never to pay it back? IM not saying that would have happened but it happens all the time today with legal students, so if an UNDOCUMENTED person were to do it nothing could be done to fix it.

OK YOU POSTED LINKS, I GAVE OPINIONS, LETS TRY THIS AGAIN, DISCUSS WITH ME, TALK WITH ME, DONT POST STUPID ASS LINKS, PROVIDE YOUR OWN SPECULATION. PLEASE, and thank you.

[Rocky]

giving in state tuition to someone who may or may not really be in state will be MORE than a pell grant FWIW. thats what im getting at. (OR OTHER, means other benefits) lets say someone graduated from a high school and MOVES, then goes back to the state they graduated from just to get a cheaper tuition. <----- do you see what im saying, im not being rude or stupid there were just SO many ways that this could have gone bad.

BTW didnt the houses revision of the bill kind of have a gray area to where they could have recieved pell grants? I know the senate version was absolutely not but didnt the house version somehow have it to where there was a possibility of it? which im not even adding that in my argument, i just remember seeing that on a pro-amnesty page at one point in time. once again thanks and please dont post me a bunch of links.

but listen I know these children did nothing wrong, and its not their fault that their parents did something illegal to get them here and God Bless their parents for wanting a better life, i have no problems with what the bill itself promotes (except what i stated above) BUT with allowing something like this there will be bad coming from it and you know as well as i do that more illegals would have come in waiting for revisions of the Dream Act to pass, once again i cant blame them but it would have to end somewhere before it turned into an all out amnesty.

[CoeburnCane]

No links here, just allow me to point out something, Rocky.

You're talking about some bad things coming from the DREAM Act. It's not the legislation's fault, it's not the people who wrote it's fault...it's really just a function of people finding loopholes that give them advantages in any piece of law. You thumbing your nose at the DREAM Act shouldn't be your first order of business if we're talking legislation with loopholes that's constantly abused. If nothing else--your first order of business should be the corporate tax code, and sealing up some of the silly tax shelters that are allowed to multi-billion dollar corporations each year that allow them to not pay in taxes as one would assume, but instead--get enough tax lawyers/accountants to find them enough credits/breaks/loopholes to where the government ends up paying them a hefty refund.

But--I digress. I know R13's frustrating, but your angst and worry is misguided in this particular circumstance. It's a law--it's going to have flaws, and no matter how close to perfect it looks as it goes through Congress, when it passes...someone WILL find a way to circumvent parts of it, no question about it.

[R13]

Wrong again, the bill does not provide for in-state tuition, another myth passed around. It leaves it completely up to the states to decide whether to charge them in or out of state tuition and of course they have to reside there to begin with - they only debate is that since they aren't legal and officially have a place of residence, which would they be charged? Again, the bill did not allow it, they couldn't even in the first place since it's up to the states to decide that. I understand you don't like the links because they throw out your whole argument, but I'm going to post them when it's a matter of facts and figures...



...the legislation that passed the House on Dec. 7 does not mention in-state tuition, and no version ever considered would mandate or force states to offer DREAM Act participants in-state rates. That's an opinion shared by Michelle Mittelstadt, a spokeswoman for the nonpartisan Migration Policy Institute, and by Steve Camarota, director of research for the Center for Immigration Studies, a group that opposes the DREAM Act.


The version of the DREAM Act that passed in the House -- as well as prior versions that were debated -- did not include language requiring states to offer DREAM Act participants in-state tuition. The closest a version of the DREAM Act came was to propose repealing a federal rule that some have interpreted as preventing states from offering in-state tuition to illegal immigrants. But that version never came to a vote.

Moreover, 11 states already offer in-state tuition, so rates in those places -- including California and Texas -- couldn't go lower.

As for the other states, the only real argument is that passing the DREAM Act could have the consequence of forcing them to offer in-state tuition to illegal immigrants as well. And we guess it could. But there's no definitive evidence that it would, just conjecture and speculation. And it certainly isn't expressed in the bill language.

http://politifact.com/florida/statem...ans-lower-tui/

That's from an independent site I visit frequently, so can't write that off as biased. You said "you said there were no funds set aside for them (pell grant or other) and you were wrong on that" - that's what you said I was wrong at, I took that as implying that you claimed there was funds set aside for them(pell grants or such). Even though your argument now claims there was no money set aside for them, just that it lowered tuition rates...though that is wrong too.



I'm pretty sure from what you said, you don't know what the bill does or how it works. Do you think that there isn't some process and you just qualify for it? Uh no, there's strict rules and guidelines and a long process to even be considered for the program. So I don't know where you're getting that they wouldn't have any knowledge about these kids, the exact opposite actually, which is a lot of information and the bill states and all that information is to be provided to all local, state and federal law enforcement - you don't qualify if you have broke the law and will be removed if you do. You seem to think this is some loosely controlled program, couldn't be further from the truth. They even have to pay application fees up to 2200+ bucks, it's actually TOO strict in my opinion and makes it harder for the lower income immigrants.

Your example of them moving, then moving back doesn't even make sense...if you live in the state, you can qualify for in-state tuition, you moving and coming back doesn't make a difference. If you live in VA and want to go to a state that's in Texas, you'd have to pay out of state tuition. So as long as they live in VA, why wouldn't they pay in-state tuition for a school in VA? I don't think it works as what you're saying, that you only qualify if it's your homestate...I believe most have rules such as you have to prove residency for at least 12 months prior or will set up permanent status in that state in the future. But it varies from state to state though those are the typical ones, but there are many ways to prove either. So if these kids have lived in the state, why shouldn't they be eligible for in state tuition? Even though the bill doesn't provide for it, I myself believe they should.

And paying them to go to school? Again, where are you getting this? What would we be paying? Here's another fun link for you...

http://www.cbo.gov/ftpdocs/120xx/doc12015/hr6497.pdf

That's the CBO report on this bill, know what it says? That it would reduce the deficit by 2.2 billion dollars over the next ten years. There's no fee the taxpayers would be paying for each student of anything, all it does is add more people to the workforce later on who will be paying taxes and into SS. Not passing the bill is costing us money, not the other way around.


The question isn't "do you think the dream act is good or bad?", which is a loose question that opinion comes into play, you're talking about something that is either there or isn't, so I'll post the facts/language of the bill if you're going to argue something that isn't in the bill. A lot of things are a matter of opinion, but people think that EVERYTHING is just a matter of opinion, but there are issues that influence that opinion that deal with facts that aren't debatable - which is the case of many issues in politics. This particular part happens to be one of them when talking about your claims.

[centennialdawg]

I am just wondering where this thread got "hi-jacked" into what it is now? It was originally meant for a WW II veteran and his "problem" with proving his heritage.

[Rocky]

"I'm pretty sure from what you said, you don't know what the bill does or how it works."

*sigh* because i got my info from the immigration acts website and it "was wrong". its speculation of what could have happened. listen we dont have to agree or disagree on anything but when you make smartass comments like the one above thats when people get pissed off at you. I dont care on the other hand, it just kills me that you think that anyone who even sits in between on issues is the personification of a tea party member. Thanks for the info though, ill compare it to what i have looked at before and figure out what is going on FOR MYSELF, i dont need to agree with what every other centrist tells me.

If you aren't a liberal at 20 you have no heart. If you aren't a conservative at 40 you have no brain.
WINSTON CHURCHILL

so where do i sit? thank you very much for your insight though R13 i appreciate it man.